Dealing with Riba Dar al Harb

[sherkhan]

Mufti Akhtar Raza's fatwa (and of other ulemas like Mufti Nizamuddin Ridwi) is regarding the bank deposit where a Muslim makes a deposit in dar al-harb and earns interest on the loaned amount. Such an interest income has been deemed legal. If you read Mufti Akhtar Raza's fatwa carefully, it deals only with bank interest income.

Mufti Akmal's fatwa is regarding mortgages where a Muslim takes a mortgage and pays interest on such mortgage in dar al-harb. He deems the interest payable as usury and hence impermissible.

Why are you getting into a needless tangle? The rulings are on different matters altogether - in one (i.e. bank deposit) the Muslims earn interest and in the other (i.e. mortgages) they pay interest.

[chisti-raza]

Why are you getting into a needless tangle? The rulings are on different matters altogether - in one (i.e. bank deposit) the Muslims earn interest and in the other (i.e. mortgages) they pay interest.

that is something that he did not understand.

btw: Am I the only one noticing this but does it not seem that trolls are on the increase these days? Allah knows best.

[khadim.awliya]

which country is considered Dar Harb ? is India , America, Canada , UK from Dar Harb ? please answer this then we can discuss if taking interest from Bank in these countries is OKAY or not.

According to Mufti Akmal Western Countries cannot be considered Dar Harb

[chisti-raza]

You seriously need to look into your adab brother. You come here on the pretext of being a student but in reality wish to teach. Why don't you detail your view with your daleel and see if anyone wishes to discuss your view, which you are most welcome to instead of trying to play scholars against each other and groups with a leaning towards one scholar against another group that leans towards another scholar.

[khadim.awliya]

Originally Posted by chisti-raza

You seriously need to look into your adab brother. You come here on the pretext of being a student but in reality wish to teach. Why don't you detail your view with your daleel and see if anyone wishes to discuss your view, which you are most welcome to instead of trying to play scholars against each other and groups with a leaning towards one scholar against another group that leans towards another scholar.

I want to know all the sayings of the scholars and how they came to the conclusion. Our local sunni dawate islami masjid imam in downtown says you can follow any Mufti as long as your heart is convinced ( mut'ma-een )
Those who follow the scholars who have legalized mortgage riba in western countries the burden will be on the mufti and not the individuals.

I feel we need scholars who are well versed in finance and western policies and laws so they can do proper ifta. This is what is direly needed in western societies.

If you think I am trying to play scholars against other scholars and if the scholars would fall for it, then this is confirmation that they are not scholars.

I think you didn't watch the video of Mufti Akmal Qadri and then you will realize the adab, humility and humbleness.

[abu Hasan]

2. In my little research i found that the verifying hanafi scholars like Ayni, the author of nasb al rayah & others have declared that

as far as i can see, the research is certainly very little.

-----
these are quotes from al-binayah of al-ayni (assuming this is what is being quoted - given the context of al-hidayah being mentioned and al-zayla'yi's naSbu'r raa'yah) vol.8, pg.299-300: [brown and bold text is wording of al-hidayah/mirghinan and blue is commentary of al-ayni in al-binayah; further down different colors and indents to show nested comments]

text: as for us, is his saying alayhi's salatu wa sallam
commentary: that is the saying of the Prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam.

t: there is no interest between a muslim and a Harbiy in dar al-Harb.
c: this hadith is gharib and does not have an established isnad. and ka'aki said: we accept the hadith mentioned in the text [of hidayah]

and in al-mabsut: ' narrated from mak'Hul from the prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam that he said: 'there is no interest between a muslim...'

and this hadith, even if it is mursal; mak'Hul is trustworthy (thiqah) and the mursal hadith narrated by the likes of him are accepted.

and akmal[uddin babarti] said: [aH: and this is also a verbatim citation from naSbu'r Raya'ah of al-zayla'yi under hadith 6395, vol.4 pg.44]

abu Hanifah and Muhammad rahimahumAllah have accepted the narration of mak'Huul in its entirety. and he [akmal] said: muHammad ibn al-Hasan has mentioned this and so also al-atrazi. and he said: this is how it is in the commentary of abu naDr.

and i say: bayhaqi has mentioned the chain in his al-ma'arifah in kitab al-siyar from al-shafiyi raDiyallahu anhu that he said:

abu yusuf has said that:

abu hanifah raDiyallahu anhu said so because some of his shaykhs narrated from mak'Hul, the hadith from RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam that he said:

there is no riba between the people at war (ahl al-harb)

and i suppose (azunnu) he also said:

and muslims (wa ahl al-islam)

al-shafiyi said raDiyallahu anhu:

this [isnad] is not established nor can it be used as proof.

-------------

i say: we do not accept that this narration does not have an established chain - because the greatness of imam [abu hanifah] is far removed from taking a position without a clear proof.

as for his [al-shafiyi's] saying: 'this cannot be used as proof [hujjah]', then this is with respect to his own self - because in his madh'hab, mursal hadith except the marasil of sa'yid ibn al-musayyib are not accepted as proof; whereas in our madh'hab (among hanafis) we accept mursal as valid proof, when its relevance is known.

and Allah ta'ala knows best.

[kattarsunni]

Even if the hadith is accepted 'laa riba bayna alharbi was muslim fi daril harb', it does not in anyway establish the ruling that one can give riba to a harbi.

The fuqaha who have cited this hadith have used it for taking money from harbis when it is in the benefit of the Muslims, not giving harbis riba.

In England the house may belong to you but the land is never bought. The land belongs to the government. There are extortionate prices being paid for the walls and roof, and the land stays in the hands of the government. Then if mortgage payments are not kept up the bank takes hold of the property. Also there are laws in the UK where the government can knock houses down at certain circumstances. Mortgages are slavery and are definitely not in the interest of the Muslims.

One UK scholar was asked regarding mortgages and he replied they are allowed in 'darurah'. This is definitely not the way to answer the question as even swine and alcohol are allowed in 'darurah'.

Then those buying homes under the pretext of 'darurah' see the need to buy a house beyond there 'darurah', with many rooms and a big garden.

la hawla wa la quwwat illa billah.

[AbdalQadir]

Mortgages are slavery and are definitely not in the interest of the Muslims.

- as opposed to - renting? how is that not slavery?

unforeseen circumstances, like death of a bread earner or serious disability?

[chisti-raza]

Originally Posted by AbdalQadir

- as opposed to - renting? how is that not slavery?

unforeseen circumstances, like death of a bread earner or serious disability?

yes, these are very important factors that need consideration.

[kattarsunni]

- as opposed to - renting? how is that not slavery?

unforeseen circumstances, like death of a bread earner or serious disability?

If one were to accept that rent is slavery that does not make mortgage halal.

In England there are rights for the one renting, there is also squatters rights, council housing. The government provides housing in England.