Nuh Kellers audio on imkan alkidhb

[Khaadim al-Mustafa]

Originally Posted by Ahmed_

http://sunnianswers.wordpress.com/20...s-ulema-who-w/

http://sunnianswers.wordpress.com/20...-allah-to-lie/

I've read these articles and I agree with the content with the exception of takfir. Sheikh Nuh isn't saying that Allah has flaw nor that the messengers would have lied.

[AbdalQadir]

is the audio available somewhere else too? i can't seem to download it or listen to it

[sunnistudent]

I'm not here to debate. Besides, I agree with you that lying is muhal for Allah.

Secondly, the contents of the link are mostly in Urdu, which I don't know well. I'm a Finnish convert.

I don't have formal studies in Islamic sciences but I can tell what basic aqida is. I asked sheikh Nuh about this very issue and he pointed out that what is necessary to believe is that Allah doesn't lie. The proof for this is not from the necessary beliefs.

Brother, I only requested to provide me one reference where imkan al kidhb( intrinsically or contigently) has been associted with qudrah of Allah and has been counted among possibility.

Secondly, the scan has all the relavent arabic quotes on the right hand side with Urdu translation on the left side.

Plus , more than twenty five quotes have been given where it has been said that Kidhb has no association with qudrah of Allah.

If you want to start from basic, please look at tafsir Jalalyn, where it has been clearly told that the qudrah of Allah is not associated with those things which is muhal. This is the basic aqida.

I don't think any one here is debating. I only asked for the reference.

I have written a refutation against Nuh Keller's blunders but I'm not going to post it up until I have it checked by some `ulema with whom I am in contact with

Wassalam

Originally Posted by abu Hasan

DISCLAIMER: assuming that the clip is truly shaykh nuH's and not doctored:

after listening to this clip, my opinion of nuh keller has changed. not that i do takfir, but just a mistaken person who is aiding bid'yis unwittingly.

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nuh keller is probably lying.

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when he writes long articles without proper research, with even false accusations, it is 'iHsan'. but when someone wants a clarification, they have plenty of time on their hands to waste.

looks like keller is influenced (he is an older man and i respected him, but after listening to this pathetic clip, any respect i had for him washed away, sadly) by the deobandis a-plenty. he is mouthing the same flawed arguments of khalil ambhatti without bothering to check.

plus, i would like to see where sharif al-jurjani said in his sharH al-mawaqif what keller claims in his talk. looks like he has no idea about kalam literature and aqidah books. [i am furious, yes. i would rather reject nuh keller than attribute falsehood to Allah sub'Hanahu wa ta'ala most high].

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in the first place, the fitna was sleeping until the deobandis roused it, spoiling the aqidah of muslims; imam ahmed rida khan refuted it and tried to bring the muslims back to the sane and sound aqidah of ahl as-sunnah.

we have, alHamdulillah, cited scores of books of aqidah and ayimmah but the deobandi (and by extension keller) don't see all of this - and are adamant on a fasid aqidah. yes, what keller says in this talk is repugnant and certainly not something that should come out of a gnostic's mouth.

alas! were it, that he had shut up rather than attributing naqS to Allah ta'ala!

keller is contributing to the wrong aqidah. a friend was once telling me that keller was a shaykh of 'iHsan' and he should be excused. i believed him then and agreed and up until now, i considered him as 'shaykh nuH'. but yesterday, i was thinking - how can a person guide someone to Allah ta'ala, one who is himself ignorant of the attributes of Allah ta'ala.

we pray Allah ta'ala to guide keller to the truth.

I wholeheartedly agree with Sidi Abu Hasan's views. How can an ignoramus who attributes naqs to Allah (wa `iyadhbillah) be considered "a Shaykh of iHsan". ma`adhAllah thumma ma`adhAllah. Astaghfirullah al-adhim

May Allah save us.

[SA01]

OK.......so I've listended to the clip again and again and again....in the hope that I have misheard Keller!

Alas....that was a wish.

I am now totally enraged!!

[Aqdas]

does contingently impossible have the same meaning as most like impossible?

most likely impossible means slightly possible...

[naqshbandijamaati]

I think contingently impossible means possible in theory not in practise.

its like one of the dobbs elders said that 'even if another prophet was to come after prophet muhammad it wouldnt effect his being the last of the prophets!'

that lead to the door of qadiyaniat being opened....
why worship a God who has the intrinsic ability to lie? (naudhubillah). this belief is so dangerous it turns the whole of the islamic doctrine on its head.

[AbdalQadir]

does contingently impossible have the same meaning as most like impossible?

Yes, when we speak of the word in it's general sense.

In this context here, what they are saying is what we have heard from the shayateen of the subcontinent again and again; that is, impossible subject to some conditions, which in their case, is the point that Allah has said He does not lie, which is (ie their argument) a mujassima argument in itself if one observes it closely, as Allah's Kalam is One, and not haadith and sequential in moments of time like our speeches.

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The core point of the issue is that Allah's Kalam is NOT a creation; and "possibilities" do not apply to it. It is a necessary attribute of His. The creation are subject to His Qudrah (Power).

Attributing "possibilities" to His Kalam is i'tizal in and of itself, and then attributing the possibility of lie to it is further compounding it.

SubhanAllahi 'amma yasifoon.

I think this thread has become an emotional rant. Why can't sunnis discuss the issue with some decorum. Firstly sunni student your mixing the issue up, nobody is discussing imkan al-kidhb here, what's being discussed is lying being mustahil aradi or not.

As for the people writing refutations I think beside Abu Hasan i don't think there's anyone one this site that has the required knowledge and research ability to write a response. Maraqihalfalah you should spend your time studying more rather than attempting to write articles way beyond your capability.

Also the majority of posters are too busy defaming Shaykh Nuh rather than discussing the issue. Whatever ones opinion is of the man at least try to discuss the issue at hand.

Now to the issue itself, Shaykh Nuh's statement clearly states that is mustahil aradi for Allah to tell a lie. Now rather than bringing a barrage of quotes that state it is mustahil bi-dhat why not check those apparent quotes (or books) that he presented. There are some other quotes also that need to be answered. Regarding the post of Maraqialfalah and Abdul Qadir, they lack both decorum and academia and some parts and examples used are simply revolting, can you for once discuss the issue with some etiquette.

For the record I believe it is mustahil bi-dhat. Now can we first address the comments of Abi Sharif, I know this has already been discussed by Abu Hasan and he gave some informative information however we still have to reply to Ibn Abi as-Sharif's statement in the musamarah. He clearly states that the position of the Asharis is that lying is within the qudra of Allah yet he chooses not to do it. Now I showed this quote to one of the leading ulema in England and he said the quote is problematic and that the quote clearly shows that Abi as-Sharif is attributing this belief to the ashaira. Now he said either his naql is wrong to begin with or he is mistaken, either way he said even if some of the ashaira said this we would still be compelled to refute them on the issue. As for the belief itself one has to admit at the very least as per the statement found in the Umda that this may be the position of the mu'tazila. Therefore if that be the case it would still not take one outside the fold of Islam. For the record the fatwa of Imam Ahmad Rida on Rashid Ahmad was about wuqu al-kidhb and not the issue being discussed.

I would Appreciate it if Abu Hasan could comment further.