what are clear cut reasons for takfir of dr.tahir - Page 2

Noori · 03-25-2012, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Can you tell me if Christians are allowed to worship in Muslim countries or not?

At the time of Prophet(Peace be upon him) and Khulafa(Radiyallahu Anhum) were christians allowed to worship according to their own religion or not under Muslim rule?

it is really strange that our brothers are still responding to this moron.

The Emir · 03-25-2012, 04:44 PM

@Harun

You need help

abu Hasan · 03-25-2012, 05:22 PM

how come you decide to become an internet mufti on some matters and not on which you cannot answer?

answers to all your confusion can be found in MFM. i can understand your condescension and your refusal to accept the words of an anonymous nobody. but it is more of a collection of quotes from great ulama respected worldwide. all those quotes are referenced - anybody can look them up. now, if my quotes are out of context, go ahead and critique them. show the proper context. if these are mistranslated, correct those passages.

why can't you read MFM, at least once, even if it is with disdain? after all, you are the people (as it appears from your postings and minhaji defence) who want to have an understanding with yahud/nasara by going to them and calling them.

is it that difficult to look into a book written by a muslim? or are you afraid that the book will cast a spell on you?

----
your questions are a product of qiyas-e-fasid. let us forget our disagreement for a moment, and talk as two students (as you too claim to be a student). aren't these questions loaded ones? i mean, if you are a serious, will you peek in a book, find a hadith or event and run away with your own qiyas? is there a method or not to follow? do you accept usul or not?

see it is difficult to talk to a person who takes any position that suits him. in spite of our anonymous handles, all of us declare of positions upfront. why can't you do that? are you afraid of stating your true belief?

i understand that you are not a mufti and a totally-helpless-blank student, but at least you may know the following basics:

1. do you believe in abrogation? (nasikh-mansukh)

2. if there are two hadith that (apparently) contradict - one that was said in previous years of hijrah and one that is from later years of hijrah, which one do you think might be the abrogator?

3. sayyiduna `umar was a ruler. can any of his actions - raDiyallahu `anhu - be considered as a model for us? did he understand these issues better or prof.tahir knows better?

4. can the opinions of imam a'azam, imam abu yusuf and imam muhammad be considered authority?

--------
in principle, i should answer your questions only when you have declared your persuasion. who knows you may turn out to be an anti-hadith

Quote:

I agree that there were some Ghayr Sharee things that happened in the Multi Faith events araanged in the mosque.

actually, many acts and words of kufr. but let us keep this aside for a moment.

Quote:

But,lets keep the worshipping of Christians in Mosque aside for a moment.

but you are mixing up two things. the previous one is a different issue; worshipping of christians in a mosque is another old story. both are separate issues.

Quote:

Can you tell me if Christians are allowed to worship in Muslim countries or not?

yes, they are.

Quote:

At the time of Prophet(Peace be upon him) and Khulafa(Radiyallahu Anhum) were christians allowed to worship according to their own religion or not under Muslim rule?

yes and yes with some riders.

Quote:

Does giving freedom of worship to Non Muslims or allowing Christians to stay in Muslim countries and worship according to their customs ammount to being Razi on Kufr of Christians or their polytheism?(M'aazAllah)..

no.

Quote:

Wahabis have Mujassima beliefs and they come and pray in Sunni Mosques. Does it mean that we are Razi on their Kufr?

no, it doesn't.

--------------------------------------------------------
see, in spite of those loaded questions, i have given you straight answers. now you tell me,

Quote:

Can you tell me if Christians are allowed to worship in Muslim countries or not?

can you tell me if the Prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam or his SaHabah invited christians to worship according to their own tradition or not?

Quote:

At the time of Prophet(Peace be upon him) and Khulafa(Radiyallahu Anhum) were christians allowed to worship according to their own religion or not under Muslim rule?

was jiziyah imposed upon them or not? is jizyah proven by the naSS of the qur'an? what are the maqaSid of jizyah - is it just to accumulate wealth? were the ahl e kitab considered as believers at any point of time? did any sahabi or tabiyi or their followers ever invite christians for dinner and encourage them to proclaim what they worship? what is the status of the hadith: "expel jews and christians from the jaziratu'l arab"?

does any book of hadith or fiqh include rulings on ahl al-kitab? if so, which book do you trust?

Quote:

Does giving freedom of worship to Non Muslims or allowing Christians to stay in Muslim countries and worship according to their customs ammount to being Razi on Kufr of Christians or their polytheism?(M'aazAllah)..

is encouraging a person to continue to be in the state of kufr, being razi with kufr or not?

ahl al-kitab are allowed to drink wine and eat pork in muslim countries; but is it permissible for a muslim to purchase wine and pork, lay it on his table, invite christians and ask them to enjoy the wine and bacon (you have come to your own house, please do not hesitate) an islamic act? even if the host does not drink wine or eat pork himself?

Quote:

Wahabis have Mujassima beliefs and they come and pray in Sunni Mosques. Does it mean that we are Razi on their Kufr?

that is twice you have broken your promise. you asked us not to discuss praying in mosques, but you still bring this issue. as has been demonstrated, you want us to follow your rules, but you can be as free as you wish.
are you implying that wahabis with mujassimah beliefs are kafir?

AbdalQadir · 03-25-2012, 05:23 PM

yes harun is a jahil mutlaq:

harun i suggest you read the various tafasir of this verse:

وَالَّذِينَ اتَّخَذُوا مَسْجِداً ضِرَاراً وَكُفْراً وَتَفْرِيقاً بَيْنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَإِرْصَادَاً لِمَنْ حَارَبَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ مِنْ قَبْلُ وَلَيَحْلِفُنَّ إِنْ

أَرَدْنَا إِلّا الْحُسْنَى وَاللَّهُ يَشْهَدُ إِنَّهُمْ لَكَاذِبُونَ

and this one

وَأَنَّ الْمَسَاجِدَ لِلَّهِ فَلا تَدْعُو مَعَ اللَّهِ أَحَداً

and these ones:

فِي بُيُوتٍ أَذِنَ اللَّهُ أَنْ تُرْفَعَ وَيُذْكَرَ فِيهَا اسْمُهُ يُسَبِّحُ لَهُ فِيهَا بِالْغُدُوِّ وَالْآصَالِ ، رِجَالٌ لا تُلْهِيهِمْ تِجَارَةٌ وَلا بَيْعٌ عَنْ ذِكْرِ

اللَّهِ وَإِقَامِ الصَّلاةِ وَإِيتَاءِ الزَّكَاةِ يَخَافُونَ يَوْماً تَتَقَلَّبُ فِيهِ الْقُلُوبُ وَالْأَبْصَارُ ، لِيَجْزِيَهُمُ اللَّهُ أَحْسَنَ مَا عَمِلُوا

وَيَزِيدَهُمْ مِنْ فَضْلِهِ وَاللَّهُ يَرْزُقُ مَنْ يَشَاءُ بِغَيْرِ حِسَابٍ

and finally this one and the fuqahaa's extractions from it:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِنَّمَا الْمُشْرِكُونَ نَجَسٌ فَلا يَقْرَبُوا الْمَسْجِدَ الْحَرَامَ بَعْدَ عَامِهِمْ هَذَا وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ عَيْلَةً فَسَوْفَ يُغْنِيكُمُ اللَّهُ

مِنْ فَضْلِهِ إِنْ شَاءَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ

----------

rather than making your jahil mutlaq qiyas on permission of dhimmis to worship in a muslim state over permission of kafirs to worship in a mosque

----------

speaking of bloody dhimmis, see the primary fiqh manuals of ALL 4 madhhabs of the ahlus sunnah and see what are the rulings on a person who has honored dhimmis by activities such as those done by padri and his jahil mutlaq crew (hint: all four madhhabs call it irtidad)

The Emir · 03-25-2012, 05:29 PM

yes harun is a jahil mutlaq

I think where he is heading with his defence of blatant kufr is more dangerous than jihalat!!

abu Hasan · 03-25-2012, 05:33 PM

oh, i missed this one. apologies.

Quote:

If suppose a Head of Muslim state announces that people of my kingdom have freedom to worship according to their religion and Dhimmi Non Muslims have to pay a tax if they want to stay in the Islamic State. Will we issue a fatwa of Kufr on him for permitting Shirk ?

no.

---------------
now my question:

Quote:

If suppose a Head of Muslim state announces that people of my kingdom have freedom to worship according to their religion and Dhimmi Non Muslims have to pay a tax if they want to stay in the Islamic State. Will we issue a fatwa of Kufr on him for permitting Shirk ?

the third time you broke your promise. you did not want to discuss praying in mosques, but still your questions are about it.

if suppose, a head of a muslim state announces that christians of my kingdom are allowed to bring their crosses in Muslim masjids, and chant that yisa alayhi's salam is the son of god (al-iyadhubillah); that by doing so, they have not gone anywhere - they have come to their own homes. and proclaims that all christians are believers alongside muslims and form a single ummah and christians should not be considered as disbelievers.

will we issue a fatwa of kufr on him for not considering ahl-e-kitab as kafir or not?

AbdalQadir · 03-25-2012, 05:53 PM

for those who can comprehend and whose eyes are not star studded, please do see the tafasir of the verses quoted in post # 14.

if the ummah's sheeple of our times were even as switched on as the Muslim CRIMINALS of Sayyidina Ghawth-e-A3zdham or Imam-e-A3zdham's times, just a cursory look at the tafasir of those verses would shred the padri to smithereens, along with his jahil mutlaq crew of fanboys and they (the criminals of their times) would have issued fatwas of kufr on his actions inviting christians to pray according to their traditions in Muslim mosques

it is directly related to the topic. it is also a pitiful tragedy that a thousand plus years ago, our akabir have answered questions that are relevant even to our times, yet the star studded eyes and obscene levels of jahalah in our time can't even permit us to open their works and as much as read! this is the only reason people like the padri get away with what they can!

khadim.awliya · 03-25-2012, 06:02 PM

Those you are attacking brother Harun, need to know what this verse means

http://quran.com/3/159
and the tafsir .... may be this the issue here, condescending tone ?

Everyone admits that Dr Tahir al Qadri has made mistakes but it looks here that some brothers want to make sure that Taher al Qadri becomes Murtad and Kafir instead of approaching Dr Taher and showing him his mistakes. FEDEX or UPS , can deliver your book to him. Easy to get his address, Wadood can help. I will also approach him and give him the book when i get a chance, but not to mock Dr Taher or make him look like some idiot. Rather, to help him, be in Islam and work for Ahlus Sunnah.

Why do we always look for any opportunity to draw swords and make blood and property of our brethren halal ?

Look for excuses.

abu Hasan · 03-25-2012, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Look for excuses.

for shayTan?

this dajjal is distorting verses and tearing up sahih hadith to fit his worldview. and shayTan whispers in your ears to close your eyes and act like a naked shayTan.

---

Quote:

need to know what this verse means

i will tell you what it means if you promise me to tell me the meaning of verses i will present.

khadim.awliya · 03-25-2012, 06:18 PM

I said Dr Taher made mistakes. But, I would not doubt the intentions of Taher al Qadri rather, I would say lack of knowledge or articulation. lack of use of proper words.
Why cannot you understand that shariah education is sub-standard in the subcontinent. People have hard time making a living and when there is no hope they become molvis and maulanas. why so much expectation from such people. Dr Taher is no different than any other normal molvi from subcontinent. Everyone knows here what I am speaking about.

I am ready for anything you ask.

Put the clear cut kufric statement of Dr Taher ul Qadri in the light of shariah. who can deny it ?

03-25-2012, 05:23 PM	#14
AbdalQadir Resident Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,347	yes harun is a jahil mutlaq: harun i suggest you read the various tafasir of this verse: وَالَّذِينَ اتَّخَذُوا مَسْجِداً ضِرَاراً وَكُفْراً وَتَفْرِيقاً بَيْنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَإِرْصَادَاً لِمَنْ حَارَبَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ مِنْ قَبْلُ وَلَيَحْلِفُنَّ إِنْ أَرَدْنَا إِلّا الْحُسْنَى وَاللَّهُ يَشْهَدُ إِنَّهُمْ لَكَاذِبُونَ and this one وَأَنَّ الْمَسَاجِدَ لِلَّهِ فَلا تَدْعُو مَعَ اللَّهِ أَحَداً and these ones: فِي بُيُوتٍ أَذِنَ اللَّهُ أَنْ تُرْفَعَ وَيُذْكَرَ فِيهَا اسْمُهُ يُسَبِّحُ لَهُ فِيهَا بِالْغُدُوِّ وَالْآصَالِ ، رِجَالٌ لا تُلْهِيهِمْ تِجَارَةٌ وَلا بَيْعٌ عَنْ ذِكْرِ اللَّهِ وَإِقَامِ الصَّلاةِ وَإِيتَاءِ الزَّكَاةِ يَخَافُونَ يَوْماً تَتَقَلَّبُ فِيهِ الْقُلُوبُ وَالْأَبْصَارُ ، لِيَجْزِيَهُمُ اللَّهُ أَحْسَنَ مَا عَمِلُوا وَيَزِيدَهُمْ مِنْ فَضْلِهِ وَاللَّهُ يَرْزُقُ مَنْ يَشَاءُ بِغَيْرِ حِسَابٍ and finally this one and the fuqahaa's extractions from it: يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِنَّمَا الْمُشْرِكُونَ نَجَسٌ فَلا يَقْرَبُوا الْمَسْجِدَ الْحَرَامَ بَعْدَ عَامِهِمْ هَذَا وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ عَيْلَةً فَسَوْفَ يُغْنِيكُمُ اللَّهُ مِنْ فَضْلِهِ إِنْ شَاءَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ ---------- rather than making your jahil mutlaq qiyas on permission of dhimmis to worship in a muslim state over permission of kafirs to worship in a mosque ---------- speaking of bloody dhimmis, see the primary fiqh manuals of ALL 4 madhhabs of the ahlus sunnah and see what are the rulings on a person who has honored dhimmis by activities such as those done by padri and his jahil mutlaq crew (hint: all four madhhabs call it irtidad) __________________ Think sheeple. Think, sheeple!

03-25-2012, 05:53 PM	#17
AbdalQadir Resident Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,347	for those who can comprehend and whose eyes are not star studded, please do see the tafasir of the verses quoted in post # 14. if the ummah's sheeple of our times were even as switched on as the Muslim CRIMINALS of Sayyidina Ghawth-e-A3zdham or Imam-e-A3zdham's times, just a cursory look at the tafasir of those verses would shred the padri to smithereens, along with his jahil mutlaq crew of fanboys and they (the criminals of their times) would have issued fatwas of kufr on his actions inviting christians to pray according to their traditions in Muslim mosques it is directly related to the topic. it is also a pitiful tragedy that a thousand plus years ago, our akabir have answered questions that are relevant even to our times, yet the star studded eyes and obscene levels of jahalah in our time can't even permit us to open their works and as much as read! this is the only reason people like the padri get away with what they can! __________________ Think sheeple. Think, sheeple! Last edited by abu Hasan : 03-25-2012 at 05:58 PM.

03-25-2012, 06:02 PM	#18
khadim.awliya Banned Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 52	Those you are attacking brother Harun, need to know what this verse means http://quran.com/3/159 and the tafsir .... may be this the issue here, condescending tone ? Everyone admits that Dr Tahir al Qadri has made mistakes but it looks here that some brothers want to make sure that Taher al Qadri becomes Murtad and Kafir instead of approaching Dr Taher and showing him his mistakes. FEDEX or UPS , can deliver your book to him. Easy to get his address, Wadood can help. I will also approach him and give him the book when i get a chance, but not to mock Dr Taher or make him look like some idiot. Rather, to help him, be in Islam and work for Ahlus Sunnah. Why do we always look for any opportunity to draw swords and make blood and property of our brethren halal ? Look for excuses. Last edited by khadim.awliya : 03-25-2012 at 06:05 PM.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

03-25-2012, 04:44 PM	#12
The Emir Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 207	@Harun You need help

03-25-2012, 05:29 PM	#15
The Emir Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 207	yes harun is a jahil mutlaq I think where he is heading with his defence of blatant kufr is more dangerous than jihalat!!

03-25-2012, 06:18 PM	#20
khadim.awliya Banned Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 52	I said Dr Taher made mistakes. But, I would not doubt the intentions of Taher al Qadri rather, I would say lack of knowledge or articulation. lack of use of proper words. Why cannot you understand that shariah education is sub-standard in the subcontinent. People have hard time making a living and when there is no hope they become molvis and maulanas. why so much expectation from such people. Dr Taher is no different than any other normal molvi from subcontinent. Everyone knows here what I am speaking about. I am ready for anything you ask. Put the clear cut kufric statement of Dr Taher ul Qadri in the light of shariah. who can deny it ?