shaykh asrar on praying behind the imams of haramayn

Please answer the questions

 

حضور شیخ الاسلام explains why it is impermissible to pray behind the Imams of Haramayn e Sharifayn:

 

closed for the time. will open shortly.

 

@Unbeknown
The issues raised here are old (posted on the forum some years ago), does anyone here have a problem about student disagreeing with his teacher/shaykh?

There you go, that solves the problem.

 

I don't know how this is tied to any 'debate' - past, present or future.

as a general rule, sweeping generalizations should generally be avoided.

I didn't know that discussing something that one has never heard before from a scholar (nor expected to) counts as 'fuss'.

I am not here to support fitna-makers or those who might have professional jealousy against sh. asrar.

Rather, sh. asrar is one of the few whom I consider sincere and filling big gaps from the sunni side. However, some things that he said in the last 30 minutes of this talk came as surprises to me.

I am from India and I have never heard a single sunni scholar here espouse this opinion - quite the contrary. As it is, when I heard it, naturally, my first reaction was that of surprise and shock.

However, I grant that my personal knowledge (or lack of it) alone is not - cannot be - the standard to judge the credibility or tenability or merit of an argument. Everyone profits from new information and learning is a life-long process - if a little understanding and patience are thrown in the mix, the internal anti-baatil immune system might discover that the idea it has taken for a malicious infection, may be just a benign variant of truth after-all.

As such, I believe that there is no harm in discussing these issues so that one is convinced one way or the other or just agrees to disagree.

As the world is now more connected than ever before and ideas travel at lightning-speed - the differences in convictions, preconceptions and thought processes are bound to get sharply accentuated as they come up against one another quite abruptly and the human brain likes to waste no time in pronouncing judgments and classifying them into pre-labelled boxes - things are bound to get - well, bumpy.

It makes sense then to dissect and analyse new information with careful deliberation and patience and a lot of empathy and shoe-changes - contextualizing and questioning and weighing our own assumptions - before it is stamped with disapproval and marked 'pariah'.

This can be done on forums such as ours as they can serve as mediums of mediation and education (I hear a lot of people snorting, but there you are).

However, if this thread is in a danger of falling prey to trolls or arousing negative emotions and/or causing heart-breaks - then, in the interest of the sunni cause, I request the mods to delete it.

Sincere brothers who are genuinely interested in pursuing the subject to some acceptable conclusion may please PM me and I will start a private convo with limited number of participants.


Allah ta'ala knows best.
wa's salaam

 

I don't know what you are trying to pull, then what's the point of the debate ?????

i can't understand how people post such stuff to undermine the debate.

Keep in mind Sh. Asrar is not required to follow his teachers, just like Alahazrat disagreed with Sayid Ahmad Zayni Dahlan on the issue of eman of Abu Talib, just like Alahazrat disagreed on Music with his Imam Abdul Ghani Nabulsi. The sanad of Alahazrat in Hanafi Fiqh goes through Imam Abdul Ghani Nabulsi.

Bottom line, it's ok. why some brothers are making fuss out of it ????????

 

English version attached.

 

I think a lot of Shaykh's positions have evolved especially in light of his preoccupation with countering Atheism and is perhaps not as stringent or inflexible in some of his positions in subsidiary issues. That said the current issue with the Deos suggest that the Shaykh is committed to promoting and defending the causes of Sunni (brailwi) Islam, especially if they are related to issues of principle. I hope this does not end up and I don't think it will but the Shaykh being labelled a Sullah Kulli. As I mentioned in another thread, we are losing scholars, especially our elders, so those who are still amongst us, we need to encourage and support. He often maintains a critical and objective view on positions, so it is no surprise that his positions have evolved.

This is not a defence of the Shaykh in relation to the issue raised in the thread but I feel that @Sunnisoldier wanted to take the discussion in a different direction, so let us focus on whether the Shaykh's position on praying behind the Imams of haramayn has some validity. An objective discussion on the position is what is needed and I have no doubt Abu Hasan's reply will provide clarity on the issue.

 

Shaykh Asrar seems to have changed his opinions on many things lately. Some of the comments he has also made in the last year or so in public have been very suprising.

1) The claim that we should not call ourselves brailawi even though he inspired many youth to take up the title
2) His teacher told him not to read Fatawa Ridawiyyah
3) The awwam being able to pray in any mosque they want because Allah does not task a soul more than it is able to carry
4) Praying behind imams in haramain

 

Translation done by brother Ridawi:
without a doubt, Salah behind a ghayr muqallid is disliked, prohibited and necessary to avoid (lazim al-ihtiraz). wherever he (ie the ghayr muqallid) is an imam and one is not capable of stopping him from leading, then a sunni should follow a sunni imam with sound belief somewhere else, even in jumu’ah if one can find another place. and if due to some constraint (majburi) one prayed or after praying he became aware, then repeat the salah even if the time has elapsed and even if some time has passed. [fatawa ridawiyyah 6/670]

 

i started to reply to brother ridawi's post. but then got busy. will in sha'Allah try to answer his questions first.
though this is addressed to shaykh asrar (probably), i will mention some things that i feel is my duty to share.

i request brothers to be a bit patient. there is no need for a meltdown yet.

wa billahi't tawfiq.

 

Sayyid Turaab ul Haqq sahib (raHimahullah):

 

one of hashmi miyan's clips I had seen years and years ago:

 

Should we encourage people to investigate about the beliefs of their Imam - at least those behind whom they regularly pray or not?

 

My question - if a muqtada (a religious leader whose example people emulate) is discouraged from mingling with deviants - how much more important it must be for him to not make a deviant his Imam?

 

yes brother you are correct.

The three groups mentioned in the fatwaa are thus:

1. Those Muslims (scholars and laymen alike) who know that the difference between sunnis and najdis is on ususl (principles) and not furu' (branches)

2. Those Muslims (obviously the laymen) who know that sunnis and najdis have differences but do not know that these are on principles but mistakenly think that the differences are on secondary issues - and they are so much in awe and love for the muqaddas places that the thought of avoiding jama'at does not even occur to them.

3. The third group are the utter clueless laymen who don't even know that there is something called sunni and non-sunni. They just know that there are people who call themselves Muslims and others who don't.

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Things to note (from the portion of the fatwa posted above - don't know if there is more to it):

1. The distinctions are regarding the people who visit the harmayn shareefayn.

2. The fatwa doesn't make any distinctions between an Imam of the harmayn whose deviance is openly known (by his voicing it) and whose deviance is not known with such self-attested confessions. It assumes that the Imams of the harmayn - who are appointed by the najdis - are not sunnis - as a general rule.

3. The language is cautious in regards to the second two types - that it is hoped from the Mercy of Allah ta'ala that their prayers will be accepted. It still calls them on khata or mistaken. It clearly does not make it appear like 'ignorance is bliss'.

4. It does not say that scholars and muqtadas are allowed to pray and then repeat their prayers - I think that would count as deliberately making one's prayer makruh tehreemi (at the least). If yes, is this allowed for an aalim? Even when he is not forced?

5. It also does not say that people should not be stopped from praying behind the Imams of harmayn tayyibayn.

6. It's a separate issue whether it is or is not wise to try to stop a person who has no inkling of these differences. Also, whether just loitering around during jama't time makes any sense.


Allah ta'ala knows best.

 

Snippets from the original fatwa in urdu

 

The fatwa states:
"......
After paying attention to this opening premise the reader should now understand that when the muqtadi knows that the Imam believes that to seek aid or intercession via the Prophets (Peace be upon them) and the pious men of Allah (May Allah sanctify their noble secrets) is Shirk, and he believes that to visit the resting places of the Prophets (Peace be upon them) and the men of Allah (May Allah sanctify their noble secrets), rather to even respect such places of significance is shirk yet the muqtadi believes these [and things of the kind] to be part of his creed, then how can his prayer be considered valid behind such an imam? (Phir namaz kyunkar durust ho sakti hai?)

Three types of muqtadi:

All that remains now is that year after year thousands of Muslims flock towards the two noble sanctuaries to perform both the major [Hajj] and minor [Umrah] pilgrimage. What is the correct ruling regarding their prayers? We can categorise these Muslims into three categories. The first are those who are well aware that the creed of the Imams of the two noble sanctuaries opposes their creed [and are also aware of the manner in which it opposes their creed] and we have explained their respective ruling in the opening premise, such Muslims will be sure to avoid praying behind such Imams....."

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, however, my understanding says that the fatwa articulates the following points:
1) The first group isn't specifically referring to the Ulama but includes even those laymen who are well aware that Wahabi Imams consider various valid sunni beliefs like 'Intercession' to be shirk.

2) The fatwa questions the validity of prayer behind such Wahabi Imams and concludes that the aforementioned first group of muslims would be sure to avoid praying behind such Imams.

A doubt: Shaykh Asrar, may Allah preserve him, seems to have defined the first group and associated hukm a little differently. Also, this is not the first time the noble shaykh has addressed this issue.

You can download translation of the fatwa from here

 

can someone please post the actual fatwaa of mawlana sa'eed kazmi sahib (raHimahullah)?